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	<title>Comments on: Consequences, and who is still willing to face them</title>
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		<title>By: Gibburt &#187; Obama care and the banality of the health insurance discussion</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>Gibburt &#187; Obama care and the banality of the health insurance discussion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-262</guid>
		<description>[...] to determine how to accomplish whatever that is?  As you may know from some of my other articles (here and here) I am a strong believer in taking personal responsibility for and bravely suffering the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to determine how to accomplish whatever that is?  As you may know from some of my other articles (here and here) I am a strong believer in taking personal responsibility for and bravely suffering the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gibburt &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Maturity, or when to take the blame</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Gibburt &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Maturity, or when to take the blame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-102</guid>
		<description>[...] comment posted in response to my previous article for Gibburt, contained a reference to the excellent TED talk of psychologist Barry [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comment posted in response to my previous article for Gibburt, contained a reference to the excellent TED talk of psychologist Barry [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cédric</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Cédric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-98</guid>
		<description>First of all hello! Robert mentioned this blog to me, so here I am :)

Very interesting article, I remember that when those examples you mentioned were in the news, I was really pissed off and angry, exactly because of the point you make here: accountability is sacrified, and even sanctioned!

Actually, in the Icesave example, it was quite easy to check whether this specific bank was subject to the guarantee system of the Dutch Central Bank, and it wasn&#039;t! They might have had an A status or 5 stars, but if you had brought your money to them, the Dutch Central Bank didn&#039;t guarantee you&#039;d see a penny of it back in case of bankruptcy.

But let&#039;s get back to the real matter at hand, the question of responsibility. In modern complex society it can be very hard to foresee the results of ones actions. One just cannot be an expert in everything, the world is constantly in flux, and it&#039;s sometimes hard to keep up and have an eye for everything that can influence your actions. 

On the other hand, there is so much information available, combined with a healty dose of suspicion, it shouldn&#039;t be too hard to get reliable information that helps us decide. 

The problem is, that this only works for individuals that make their decisions bases on reason. In the mentioned examples, this was not the case. The girl that thought she could fly, was having psychological problems before she used the drugs. The pensionado acted out of greed.

The tragedy is, that some politicians use these cases to make laws, and apply them to people that do know how to act with reason, and in the process justify that we act without responsibility.

What we, and those politicians, should never forget, is that without responsibility, there can be no liberty. If you take away the former, you remove the latter. 

Or, to quote John Locke: &quot;I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my Liberty, would not when he had me in his Power, take away every thing else&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all hello! Robert mentioned this blog to me, so here I am <img src='http://www.gibburt.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Very interesting article, I remember that when those examples you mentioned were in the news, I was really pissed off and angry, exactly because of the point you make here: accountability is sacrified, and even sanctioned!</p>
<p>Actually, in the Icesave example, it was quite easy to check whether this specific bank was subject to the guarantee system of the Dutch Central Bank, and it wasn&#8217;t! They might have had an A status or 5 stars, but if you had brought your money to them, the Dutch Central Bank didn&#8217;t guarantee you&#8217;d see a penny of it back in case of bankruptcy.</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s get back to the real matter at hand, the question of responsibility. In modern complex society it can be very hard to foresee the results of ones actions. One just cannot be an expert in everything, the world is constantly in flux, and it&#8217;s sometimes hard to keep up and have an eye for everything that can influence your actions. </p>
<p>On the other hand, there is so much information available, combined with a healty dose of suspicion, it shouldn&#8217;t be too hard to get reliable information that helps us decide. </p>
<p>The problem is, that this only works for individuals that make their decisions bases on reason. In the mentioned examples, this was not the case. The girl that thought she could fly, was having psychological problems before she used the drugs. The pensionado acted out of greed.</p>
<p>The tragedy is, that some politicians use these cases to make laws, and apply them to people that do know how to act with reason, and in the process justify that we act without responsibility.</p>
<p>What we, and those politicians, should never forget, is that without responsibility, there can be no liberty. If you take away the former, you remove the latter. </p>
<p>Or, to quote John Locke: &#8220;I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my Liberty, would not when he had me in his Power, take away every thing else&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Damaschke</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Damaschke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-96</guid>
		<description>There is, to my knowledge, no bank where one&#039;s savings would be guaranteed to a far higer amount than those 40,000 Euros. In the UK, for example, the Financial Services Authority only guarantees £50,000 per customer (£35,000 before 2008).

On choice fatigue, I&#039;d like to recommend this excellent talk: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is, to my knowledge, no bank where one&#8217;s savings would be guaranteed to a far higer amount than those 40,000 Euros. In the UK, for example, the Financial Services Authority only guarantees £50,000 per customer (£35,000 before 2008).</p>
<p>On choice fatigue, I&#8217;d like to recommend this excellent talk: <a href="http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Nijssen</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nijssen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-95</guid>
		<description>Gents,

Thank you both for your comments and please allow me to respond.

@Ralf
You are, of course, right that the debate regarding the distribution of responsibilities between state and individual is an old (although not unimportant) one. My intention here, however, was not so much to join this debate but more to state that, provided we want our society to be a democratic one, there is a minimum level of personal responsibility for all of us that we cannot (and maybe should not want to) transfer.   

@ Philip
Although I completely agree with you that in our current society choice fatigue is a very realistic phenomenon, I cannot accept however the extent to which you allow it to diminish the minimum level of effort required by competent adults in making those very important decisions.
To come  back to the Icesave example, at the time the bank became active on the Dutch market, the first 20,000 eur was guaranteed by the Icelandic government and the second 20.000 eur was guaranteed by the Dutch government. This means that anything above 40,000 eur was unsecured. In the light of the above the question becomes then: Should anybody who moved a significant part of his savings to this bank have known those numbers and if he did and choose to do it regardless, should he still be reimbursed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gents,</p>
<p>Thank you both for your comments and please allow me to respond.</p>
<p>@Ralf<br />
You are, of course, right that the debate regarding the distribution of responsibilities between state and individual is an old (although not unimportant) one. My intention here, however, was not so much to join this debate but more to state that, provided we want our society to be a democratic one, there is a minimum level of personal responsibility for all of us that we cannot (and maybe should not want to) transfer.   </p>
<p>@ Philip<br />
Although I completely agree with you that in our current society choice fatigue is a very realistic phenomenon, I cannot accept however the extent to which you allow it to diminish the minimum level of effort required by competent adults in making those very important decisions.<br />
To come  back to the Icesave example, at the time the bank became active on the Dutch market, the first 20,000 eur was guaranteed by the Icelandic government and the second 20.000 eur was guaranteed by the Dutch government. This means that anything above 40,000 eur was unsecured. In the light of the above the question becomes then: Should anybody who moved a significant part of his savings to this bank have known those numbers and if he did and choose to do it regardless, should he still be reimbursed?</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Hölzenspies</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-93</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Hölzenspies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-93</guid>
		<description>I will go ahead and disagree with both you (Robert) and Ralf, as - I suppose - was to be expected. You raise the point that it seems people seek (albeit that word suggests too much effort on their part, alternatively: demand) more protection from consequences. I think more protection is sought, but not compared to degree of risk in daily life. Aside from this kind of news popping up more often, there are also so many more choices to be made by your average Joe (or Jane). Especially in the example of your Icesave retiree, it stands to quite some debate how well informed he could have been. The much recognized authority of the Dutch National Bank (as well as many other national banks from countries all over Europe) gave Icesave an A status. How much more can you expect from the average Joe to dig up on a financial institute? You may argue that &quot;people were saying it was less trustworthy than established institutes,&quot; but (aside from the fact that such arguments go against the core ideas of capitalism; how else does new competition arise?) people will actually say a lot of hooey, like &quot;marihuana is a gateway drug to heroine,&quot; or &quot;the gay rights movement wants to convert everyone, in order to eradicate the human race.&quot;

At some point, the notion of choice fatigue should pop up in this (blog challenge, anyone?). Seeing as I often have difficulty finding out what company or which people are ultimately behind a brand, digging through layers of (partial) ownership, one could also argue that, before appealing to individual responsibility, companies&#039; right to obfuscate brand and product relations should be limited.

Finally, I simply can not imagine your 20-year-old tourist not &quot;bravely suffering through the consequences&quot; of his actions.

Welcome to Gibburt :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will go ahead and disagree with both you (Robert) and Ralf, as &#8211; I suppose &#8211; was to be expected. You raise the point that it seems people seek (albeit that word suggests too much effort on their part, alternatively: demand) more protection from consequences. I think more protection is sought, but not compared to degree of risk in daily life. Aside from this kind of news popping up more often, there are also so many more choices to be made by your average Joe (or Jane). Especially in the example of your Icesave retiree, it stands to quite some debate how well informed he could have been. The much recognized authority of the Dutch National Bank (as well as many other national banks from countries all over Europe) gave Icesave an A status. How much more can you expect from the average Joe to dig up on a financial institute? You may argue that &#8220;people were saying it was less trustworthy than established institutes,&#8221; but (aside from the fact that such arguments go against the core ideas of capitalism; how else does new competition arise?) people will actually say a lot of hooey, like &#8220;marihuana is a gateway drug to heroine,&#8221; or &#8220;the gay rights movement wants to convert everyone, in order to eradicate the human race.&#8221;</p>
<p>At some point, the notion of choice fatigue should pop up in this (blog challenge, anyone?). Seeing as I often have difficulty finding out what company or which people are ultimately behind a brand, digging through layers of (partial) ownership, one could also argue that, before appealing to individual responsibility, companies&#8217; right to obfuscate brand and product relations should be limited.</p>
<p>Finally, I simply can not imagine your 20-year-old tourist not &#8220;bravely suffering through the consequences&#8221; of his actions.</p>
<p>Welcome to Gibburt <img src='http://www.gibburt.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Damaschke</title>
		<link>http://www.gibburt.com/consequences-and-who-is-still-willing-to-face-them/comment-page-1/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Damaschke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gibburt.com/?p=47#comment-92</guid>
		<description>You identify a broad social trend of &quot;transferring responsibility of acting like competent adults&quot;. I&#039;m not sure I can follow you on that. I don&#039;t think there&#039;s ever been much enthusiasm for &quot;bravely suffering through the consequences of our own actions&quot; and there&#039;s always been much demand for the protective hand of the state, certainly for as long as I have been politically aware. The question to what extent people should be made to endure the consequences of their own folly, and to which extent they should be protected from their own stupidity is an old one, and it&#039;s far more complex and ambiguous than you make it out to be in this piece.

Welcome to Gibburt, by the way. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You identify a broad social trend of &#8220;transferring responsibility of acting like competent adults&#8221;. I&#8217;m not sure I can follow you on that. I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s ever been much enthusiasm for &#8220;bravely suffering through the consequences of our own actions&#8221; and there&#8217;s always been much demand for the protective hand of the state, certainly for as long as I have been politically aware. The question to what extent people should be made to endure the consequences of their own folly, and to which extent they should be protected from their own stupidity is an old one, and it&#8217;s far more complex and ambiguous than you make it out to be in this piece.</p>
<p>Welcome to Gibburt, by the way. <img src='http://www.gibburt.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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